Posts by Sea Breeze

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

Other than you reading of this in the Greek Scriptures, what proof do you have that this ever happened, or do you just believe that it happened?

@Duran

Earlier in this thread I invited a poster to google non-biblical sources for the life of Jesus. Doing that will reveal over 100 sources from Romans, Jews, Greeks, and other Secular documents. Did you do that? Why not? Is it the fact that historians can completely reconstruct the primary events of Jesus' life including his death, and resurrection from these non-biblical sources?

Duran, atheists used to make these kinds of outlandish claims denying the historicity of Jesus a few decades ago, not so much now. This is the internet age. The game has changed. It has made it a lot harder to find places to hide from God.

@SlimBoyFat

Jesus announced that he was in two places at one time. He was on earth and in heaven simultaneously. How did he do this if he wasn't God? Was he lying about this too?

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven". - John 3: 13 (Jesus trying to educate one of the teachers of Israel)

Also, I'm wondering how you get around this scripture:

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8: 9

I can't imagine you inviting the spirit of Michael the Archangel to take up residence inside of you. But, God's word makes it clear that if you aren't born again through membership in the new covenant, which allows the Spirit of Christ to reside in a person, you are "NONE OF HIS".

Does this warning concern you?

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

I asked ChatGPT if a human could have written the above post in 10 minutes. This is what it said:

No, a human didn’t write that from scratch in 10 minutes

@SBF - Have you at least tried asking ChatGPT how Jesus could raise himself from the dead? This is what it said:

"Divine Nature of Jesus: In Christian doctrine, Jesus is believed to be both fully divine and fully human. As part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), Jesus shares in the divine power of God. This means that, from a theological standpoint, Jesus has the power to perform miracles, including the power to raise himself from the dead. In John 10:17-18, Jesus himself says, "I lay down my life... No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."

You seem to really be bent out of shape on this issue and missing the larger picture. For most believers, they are thrilled to come to a point where they accept the historical fact that Jesus raised himself from the dead and that he freely offers the same gift to all others. The prospect of unending life with God, relatives, God's creative ingenuity in an environment filled with peace and love is overwhelming.

It makes no difference to me about the exact nature of God after he proved that he could raise himself from the dead. The point is that he did it.

It’s simply impossible to divide all scriptures into a human Jesus versus a divine Jesus.

Aw, this is the Strawman that has you in a pickle. This is precisely where you are stuck - an either / or conumdrum. Why are you stuck at this juncture since the bible claims he is BOTH? You won't even comment on the prospect of Jesus being both fully God and Man. This would solve your dilemma. Instead, it appears that you would rather think of Jesus as a liar rather than God.

I suspect that the real problem you have is not with the nature of God, but with your own nature - the one with a soul, body & spirit - like Jesus taught. The idea of unending consciousness after death is terrryfying enough to suppress most anything. The human mind is capable of all sorts of delusions in the face of facts to the contrary if it feels threatened enough.

For the atheist and many heretics, this is the true object of their faith: The hope of nothingness after you die if you are rejected. For the atheist, this faith (credulity actually) is so strong that they would rather believe in fantastic miracles as opposed to the facts available to us surrounding the resurrection:

1. Existence comes from non-existence

2. Order comes from Chaos

3. Life comes from non-life

4. Personal comes from the non-personal

5. Reason comes from non-reason

6. Morality comes from matter.

Have you come to a similar point where you would rather believe Jesus to be a liar rather than accept how God made you to be a tripartite being in his image?

Take John 10.18 itself for example. Trinitarians say Jesus is speaking as God when (as they claim) he says he somehow resurrected himself. But they say he is speaking as a human when he says he is commanded by God. So which is it, the human or the divine Jesus talking in this verse? It doesn’t work.

It doesn't work for YOU because you reject the tripartite nature of man. If Jesus is BOTH God and Man, I would expect to hear him speak from BOTH points of view.... exactly as he deos in scripture.

It doesn’t make any sense, because there are two major problems with that, 1) God can’t give up his life

Where did you get the idea that God can't die? Not the bible. If he can bleed, he can die.

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. - Act 20: 28 KJV

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

Moreover, the idea that Nicene Trinitarianism “replaced” a supposedly earlier angelic Christology is a distortion. The Council of Nicaea did not invent the divinity of Christ—it formally clarified what the Church had always confessed in the face of the Arian heresy, which was a novel deviation, not a recovery of earlier tradition. The creed articulated the eternal generation of the Son, “begotten, not made,” and insisted on his consubstantiality with the Father, because this is what had been taught by the apostles and preserved in liturgical and theological traditions.

aqwsed12345,

As usual, you have provided a mountain of evidence confirming the divinity of Christ from the earliest apostolic times.

The storyline that heretics are really restoring lost and forgotten truths is a total fabrication.

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

@Halcon,

One of the times Jesus predicted his self-resurrection is in John 10: 17-18 :

I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

If Jesus was not God, how did he resurrect himself from the dead? Doesn't make any sense.

15

What "message" does the J.W Org. have to offer that will attract new members ?

by Phizzy in

the message they have been pushing for 150 years or so is "the end is near !"..

in the educated, civilised world, people think " yea ?

maybe because of economic meltdown exacerbated by climate change, but not from some intervention by a non-existent god".. "would you like a free bible study ?

Sea Breeze

Watchtower is beginnning to realize that much of their theology is not only not understood, but unnecessary to keeping membership.

Watchtower tickles peoples' ears with their false hopes:

1. There is no judgment after you die

2. You won't be conscious after you die.

3. You atone for your own sins just by dying

These false hopes are sufficient in themselves to keep people from entering into an agreement for salvation directly with Jesus.

According to WT, the only way you can lose is if Armageddon comes while you are not an active JW. There is still plenty of motive for unsaved hard-working people to join the JW's.

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

@SBF

If Jesus is not God, then he lied about raising himself from the dead.

If he raised himself from the dead like he predicted, then he is God.

Either way, your argument loses. You can't have it both ways.

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

@ vienne,

Yes, we all were taught that scripture by biblical idgits. It is located right next to another scripture a few verses over that says "money is the answer for everything". - Eccl. 10: 19

Why don't you believe money is the answer for everything? I'll tell you why. It's because the book of Eccl presents reasoning from a carnal point of view - "under the sun". The book reminds the reader (nearly 2 dozen times) that this is the point of view of this literary work and is a point of view ultimately rejected by the writer.

Remember, man is a tripartite being according to scripture. When a person dies, his thoughts perish in his body..... under the sun. The physical person (the body) is powered by a supercomputer made of 3 lbs. of meat. That meat will definitely start decaying "under the sun". But, there is another "you". Two more.

Jesus spoke dozens of times about personhood and consciousness after death. Why would you accept a philosophical work confined to the failed ideology of materialism and reject the plain language of a man who said he would resurrect himself from the dead, and then proved he was God by doing it?

Do you also believe Jesus was a liar when he predicted his own self resurrrection?

In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and to raise it up again.

Furthermore, Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; He has absolute authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18). Jesus is God. He could say He would raise up His body on the third day because He, being God, has power over death.

Instead of putting faith in Jesus, WT recruits put faith in the WT organization, themselves, and their long service in distributing WT literature..... anything but Jesus. This allows them to "work with" their sin nature, rather than putting it to death as instructed.

People would definitely rather believe a lie, rather than believe a man who could do miracles and raise himself from the dead.

Nothing has changed.

But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. - Luke 19: 14

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

To ask my previous question another way then...once separated, God the Father remained alive and resurrected the dead God the Son?

The meaning of death is "separation", not non-existence. This is how Jesus could resurrect himself from the dead, while he was still dead.

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

@Halcon

If simultaneously, then it was two different persons (both God)...one dead and one alive, the one alive resurrecting the dead one?

In the bible, death means "separation". When your soul, spirit and body are joined - you are alive. When they become separated, you are dead.

Gen. 35 makes this clear early on in the bible:

17

And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Rachael died as her soul was departing. She was no longer whole. 1 Thess. 5: 23 describes a "whole" person as: the body, soul and spirit. Then, notice how Jesus describes death as the opposite : lack of wholeness. :

Luke 8 - While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

When Jesus three componenets of personhood were joined, he was a live. When his spirit (God) separated from his body, he was dead. (Same as anybody else)

196

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

Sea Breeze

How else could it be?